Discussion all very interesting on the 'manufactured boy bands' front. What about the rash of crap fake 'punk' and 'new wave' bands in the late seventies/v early eighties. There was so much fake posturing fake 'new wave' crap back then too: The Look, the Knack, The Buggles...

Medical corner: there have not been many proper studies of whether Echinacea is effective or not - some trials say it is, some say it is not. So there is no good evidence one way or another - maybe that is why George still gets colds. Glucosamine Sulphate for your joints - now that's a different matter.

Wilke - Kissing the Pink had a hit called 'The Last Film' which got to number 19 in March 1983. I was at University at the time and me and my punky mates hated them and the song and called them Piss in the Sink (how we laughed). Jackie - I agree Gerry from the Moondogs was hot (he could have been in a boyband Lyndsay) and still looks good in the recent photos on their web site. I also agree Dollar were great ('Mirror Mirror', 'Who were You with In the Moonlight?', 'Hand Held in Black & White' all classics produced by Trevor Horn pre-Frankie Goes to Hollywood and ABC). Cliff - do we know the reason why Ocean was cancelled and won't be rescheduled ?

'Give me back My Heart' - another Dollar classic

What I liked about Dollar was that the two leads David Van Day and Therese Bazarre (I fink) hated each other's guts. David Van Day is now running a hamburger stall. Julius have you heard of Firestation Tower Records - they're based in Germany? I know it's called echinacea but the drops are Echinaforce and they do build up your resistance.

I just spoke to a girl who was pretty vague but said as far as she was aware there were no plans to reschedule.She said there was nobody around to confirm it.

John Peel paid a glowing tribute to Jeff Astle in his show last night including playing a record(?)that Jeff made in 1971.

Oh Dear Ocean cancelled?? Could it be Hackney is in the middle of nowhere (transport wise) and its a Sunday night?Perhaps not. It would have been handy for the band as the next day (18th March) is a public holiday in Northern Ireland...Hopefully there'll be a new gig in the Mecca of the North. And I don't mean Sunderland George.

JACKIE: Arthur and I have been plugging away at film screenings recently. Is it you that is in Newcastle? The Tyneside cinema now has the film and were to get back to Arthur Magee about screening it, it may help if you ring the cinema and ask about it.The fella we were dealing with is MIKE KIRKUP and he is very keen to show the film. Let me know how you get on, thanks, here's to a Newcastle screening.

Wilke - well remembered - I've got that now thanks to Lindsay, unless it's the long version of course.

Played Jackies cassette last night of the sessions. Great to hear a decent quality tape rather than my 20 year old knackered version. Unfortunately it backs up my opinion that Hypnotised is a good album but overproduced - the rawer sound of the sessions is far superior. If anyone's got it I'd be interested to hear the session made I think a good few months before Positive Touch came out - the sound on that was again way better than the final album - but it's just my opinion and what does that matter !

Lee - I agree the early Radio 1 sessions of When Saturday Comes, Positive Touch, and You're Welcome were way better than the over produced album versions. Not sure I agree with your comment on Hypnotised though. It sounds damn near perfect to me.

JACKIE: See my posting below

I've had this e-mail from Ocean: 'The Undertones gig has been postponed, but there will be a rescheduled date announced soon. The tickets will be valid for the new date or you are entitled to a refund.' It's always a lottery with gigs, but I'm not giving up hope yet.

Hypnotised is just the greatest LP ever made. The tricksy guitar interplay (I recall that was a quote from somewhere!!) is just class. For example on Tearproof, whats with Terry, Nine times out of 10 (the speeded up bit at the end is just great)blah blah I could go on. Ever tried listening to it and concentrating purely on the drumming? Or the bass? Now whos sad?! True class. Everything about Hypnotised is perfect (except the back sleeve should have been on the front)Rick have you noticed we have alot in common?

Vinny I'll do my bit. 10 phonecalls should do it. Thanks for that.

lindsay not to much ale but everytime someone talk`s about boy bands you seem to stick up for them ie westlife take that a1 back streetboys well the wife went out today so i tidy up the kids rooms to the sound of sin of pride great stuff i think bye bye baby blue .got to have you back .love before romance.luxury love parade best songs on the album lee any chance of a copy of the tape jackie sent you .donald will phone tonigh to get your address so i can send you the tapes ok so talk to lot soon bye

Hope the Ocean gig is rescheduled. This time of year is so depressing we need something to look forward to. Still the likely film showing in Sheffield is good news. Wilke I wasn't referring to the boyband thing with the ale comment, more I couldn't understand what you meant by 'I hope to be going over' re. the film??

I e mailed my address Wilke a couple of days backbutit cant have got through. I'll be in tonight -Youve got My Number. Agree totally with Jackies description of Hypnotised. Every track sounds like a single and the production is superb. Didnt nobody else hear Teenage Kicks on Jackass last night or were you all watching the programme on C4 on designer vaginas?

I don't think anything on Hypnotised was overproduced, not in the same way GOY could possibly be accused of being so. Nevertheless GOY would still be in my top five Undertones tracks because it's just so bloody brilliant!

The production on the 1st two albums is much better than the last two.Having said that The Undertones unlike many other bands were (are) always at their best playing live rather than on record. Never is this more obvious than in 'Get Over You' which did suffer in the production as Lindsay says (crawling now afetr the boyband abuse).

lindsay i hope to be going over to england and soctland this year so i will try to make the same time the film or band are on well it`s pissing down here wife working time to talk the kids in to going to bed so i can put on a undertones video and pig`s might fly get my kids to bed before 11 some hope see ya

It must be great to be paid £20M not to sing. Any suggestions on who else should be paid not to sing. We can always start a collection.

Wow, great discussion on the Boybands, Like to give a thought myself to stir up discussion(hopefully) again: Many examples were mentioned of boybands who were fully created, but in what way did McLaren manafacture/create The Sex Pistols or gave them a certain image which would attract many fans. Joe Strummer once admitted the Clash's political image was mainly adapted (and thus did not reflect their real views on politics) just to jump in on the bandwagon (or 'zeitgeist'). The Slits were great:image of wild girls, but in real 2 of them were aristocrats. What I want to say: there are many ways to manafacture yourselves: from creating a band on the drawingtable to adapting an image. Is there a great difference? Ofcourse there is, but it is not as black and white!! The reality is far more confusing than to just state that Boybands are crap. To end with a positive conclusion: I think The Undertones were a band who remained themselves throughout their career: their music was so strong, they needed no extra image.

By the way: I am a great fan of the Clash too, still play my Dollar-singles a lot(Hello Jackie!!!), especially the 12-inch of 'Moonlight' is superb and turn the radio louder at certain Westlife-songs. Money should be paid to Robbie Williams for not performing his Frank Sinatra-album, or better the money should not be paid at all but instead given for a decent contract for the Undertones & Moondogs

Talking about the musicbiz and money: just read a story on The Saw Doctors website about the delay of their UK Single release because major chains like HMV and Virgin refuse to rack it (To keep enough space for R Williams, S Ellis-Baxtor et la...) Makes you sick this business thing...

Arthur: firestation tower records is a Berlin label with a great taste in guitar music, their biggest names are Ambitous Beggars from Manchester and Lato from Berlin (who have Paul Weller as fan!)

I just dont get the appeal of Dollar at all but looks like Im in a minority here.Good points Julius. Ive always been sceptical about bands and music changing things especially politically. When it does work e.g. Sixties or Punk IMO its just that the music reflects a general feeling in a large part of the population at the right time and mobilises/brings like minded people together. Music may act as a catalyst but cant cause change on its own (imo). Bands like the pistols/clash would have created a reaction regardless of their appaerance because the music was so new, energetic and blew away all the 10 minute Prog Rog shite that was abandundant at the time. The image certainly helped get lots of press coverage but it also stopped most of their records being stocked in shops and cancelled concerts. And 20years later it hasnt changed a thing but it did give us a graet record collection!

Can Lee or Rick confirm if The Moondogs Peel sessions should be available in the shops. I can't make out from their website if it is to released or has been released in the past.

Totally agree with Donald on the clash/pistols blowing away this awful progrockthing(which sadly remained popular in Holland for a long time after 77); George: Detour records is planning to release the Peel sessions in their BBC-series and talking with The Moondogs on the conditions. It can take a long time as Detour-releases are delayed often: the album by the great lost band The Cigarettes was planned for last summer and released this week

Julius, a friend of mine has just moved to live in Holland last month. I havent got his full address but I dont think he's far from Amsterdam. if ever I am out visiting we should meet up if you are close.

You are always welcome Donald, I live in the east of Holland (only 500 meters from the German border) but often visit Amsterdam/Utrecht for workpurposes of family-visit so a meeting can always be arranged.

well i think everyone in the top 40 should be paid not sing cause it`s all crap i hate all these bands that you could take home to meet you mum cause there so clean living bring back the ruts clash sex pistols 999 uk subs if i brough them home mun a dad would have killed me. well donald that you have let us know you feeling about prog rock in the time befor i for my sins like prog rock i have a album by a band call yes a double with 4 songs thank god the tones came along and save me

just saw something on tv about the sex pistols are to bring out god save the queen this summer i wonder if it will get the same reacton now as it did back 1977 or was it 76??? ps can help me i`m trying to track down any thing by a band call the the can anyone help see ya

I kept scrapbooks of EVERYTHING on the Pistols from NME/Sounds?Melody Maker. I have every single cutting from April 1976 - Sids death. Six scrapbooks in total - it makes spinechilling reading as I was so much part of that movement in 1976 onwards.

A re-release would be so pleasingly and hilariously ironic given there is much reduced interest in this coming jubilee. Wilke, we will definitely have to organise a meeting if you're coming over. If you end up on the A1 (the road not the band!) make sure you call in for a pint.

Has something weird happened? Am I having a strange dream or woken up in never never land? Talk of 'good' boy bands and Dollar being good??!! worst of all the cringeworthingly awful E17, silly little kids(or were they tuff guys from the ghetto,hmmmm thats a difficult one)with no personality.